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Re: John Vigor is an idiot

I've read Vigor's article but nothing about it upset me in any way and I was surprised that anyone would have been. I know nothing of the man but I wonder if the
offence that he seems to have caused is just one of humour culture. Apparently Vigor is British and his writing is quite tongue in cheek. Being British myself I've found over the years that my sense of humour has often been entirely misunderstood on my travels in the States. In particular, sarcasm and irony which are widely used humorously in the UK are often missed in the US. Perhaps this could explain the offence?

To quote Vigor:

"You can't hold a sensible discussion about small seagoing sailboats without mentioning the Flicka 20. Who, you might ask, would willingly pay $60,000 to $70,000 to go to sea on a boat only 20 feet long on deck - about the length of three bathtubs?

It's a good question. Nobody I can think of would pay that much for such a small boat. Over and again I'm asked why I didn't buy something bigger when the money I spent would have got me a thirty footer. I think Vigor mirrors what most people out there think and is trying to get to the bottom of why there are or were enough people to make the Flicka viable. It is no longer so its interesting that it ever was.

Vigor again:

"The answer to that question is hundreds of people. At least 400 so far. So the next question is: Why? What's this snub-nosed midget got that makes otherwise rational deep sea sailors haul out their checkbooks and scribble their signatures in mad anticipation?"

I find nothing offensive in any of it and indeed he goes on to say "the short answer is that she has charms that become more apparent and more beguiling the closer you get to her."

I find it odd that this could cause anyone offence because what comes through to me is admiration for the boat. If anything, he comes across as a little irritating but that's all. Certainly not enough to make me want to complain to a magazine.

Perhaps in the UK we're a lot more used to this kind of journalism. Many of our writers are a lot lot more abrasive than Vigor! Jeremy Clarkson gets a lot of hate mail... but then he deserves it..

Re: John Vigor is an idiot

Yea Gus - I get it...

My post is tongue in cheek too... It's a parody of American Literalism in the face of British Irony...

Gotcha!

Vigor is actually appreciative of the Flicka in many ways, but in ways that Americans have trouble seeing. It's cultural. He is off base though on several the supposed deficiencies of the boat, and I wanted to point those out. When I first read his article, it made me leery of the boat - the way he said it was slow and unseaworthy in particular.

I was delighted to find this is simply not the case - at least when the boat is skippered competently.

A "6" for seaworthiness? To this American teacher, that equals a "D". From what I've seen, the Flicka gets an B+, or A- I only deduct a couple of points because of her tendency to pitch when I get up on the bow, and her proportionally large cockpit, and small drains. Other than that she is a fast stable ship. You can run her aground, or into a gale of wind in 10 foot seas, and she will not complain. You could probably roll her and not lose the mast.

How much more seaworthy can a boat get?

=)

Re: John Vigor is an idiot

I agree with you on the seaworthy rating. Quite what his scale of seaworthiness is I don't know. What about most charter boats? Do they get a 3?

I can understand the concerns about the large cockpit and companionway. But this is a production cruising boat with offshore capability and not a specialised offshore passage maker.

Those who wish to take on heavier seas can make the companionway smaller, the cockpt shallower and install bigger drains. But having said that I've not seen bigger drains
on any of the 30+ footers I've sailed in and their cockpits are way larger! I think the Dana drains are the same and her cockpit is huge. My feeling is that in a smaller boat you just have to heave-to sooner. Getting pooped should be avoided while hove-to.

I wouldn't be surprised if the rig survived a roll. Mine survived a broadside by a 50 foot steel tripper boat whose throttle cable parted and was unable to stop. She rammed the Caraway against a concrete fuel pontoon and her bow split the outer shroud a few feet below the spreader (she was that big!). But the mast stayed up. Other 20 footers would have crumpled like cardboard.

The Flicka comes into her own in really horrible conditions. We've had some terrible seas in the Med and violent winds and been scarred to death but the Caraway has always soldiered on taking the waves in her stride. It's remarkable how when the great big waves are tumbling towards you she lifts her behind and under they go. It's ironic that the only waves that ever seem to get me wet are those from stink boats though!

Re: John Vigor is an idiot

Lol! Yea, you should see how confused the seas get at the MDR harbor entry on a weekend ebb tide with 20knots on the beam and a steep 6 foot chop with dozens of criss-crossing stink- potters showing off to thier girlfriends. Its not dangerous, just a little wet and uncomfortable as you point out. She settles down in big seas and deep water - riding like a cork.

I also agree about heaving to. Why run? Unless there is a safe easily entered harbor nearby and downwind, you will just prolong the agony. Park the boat and relax. Nomad heaves to under main only very well, foreaching slightly at around 1 knot. By tweaking the main sheet and traveler, I can even get that magic Pardey slick... Though I've never done it in much more than 20 knots or so.

The change in motion is immediate and drastic. If someone is seasick, it might help them keep a pill down and recover. Sure makes eating lunch easier. The first few times I tried I kept the jib backed.

Wrong. That will put you beam to the seas and wind. Drop the jib, and adjust the tiller and traveler until she takes the right angle.

Like everything, it takes practice. I'm thinking that a small riding sail hanked to the backstay or toping lift might keep her head to wind in really bad conditions. The other problem with the flickas big cabin and bow is all that windage forward.

Agree also about the Carribean Cruising boats. Big, fat, and underballasted. Stable initially, but once knocked over, they stay knocked over, while Nomad pops right back up like a bathtub toy...

=)

I'm an architect with a great deal of physics and engineering training. I have a pet theory about why our boats are so damened tough. The hull thickness, general construction, rigging, and fittings are strong enough for a boat twice as big. Thing is, a 40 footer generates at least qaudrupple the loads - and more because of its faster hull speed.

In engineering we call this quality "structural redundancy" and the Flicka is massively redundant. Thats why they can take the sort of pounding you mention above, and even lose stays and keep the mast. The abuse I submitted Nomad to - unfurled 80% working jib and 70% of her main showing in 50 knot gusts didn't phase the boat. Nothing broke, and she moved very well upwind, while the big boats were motorsailing and getting hammered.

Someone needs to quantify the "seaworthyness" thing. Right now its a meaningless word. Capsize charts are a good start, but I see these misinterpreted all the time. Just because a bigger boat needs more force to capsize it and a smaller boat less doen not make the big boat safer - just the opposite if the skipper fails to shorten sail, or gets broadsided by a wave. It also takes more force to right the boat, and big boats fight the sea more than small boats.

The ultimate seaworthy craft? Surfboards! Outrigger canoes and paddle boarders frequently race accross the Molikia channel in Hawaii too, a place most sailors are terrified of, no matter how big the boat.

Re: John Vigor is an idiot

Ahoy All,

I'll quantify the Flicka's seaworthyness. In a full gale off Portland Bill in England (widely recognised as one of the nastiest bits of water to be found anywhere) the Flicka I was sailing was picked up and flung down a rogue wave at 8-91 kts (still the fastest recorded Flicka speed) mast in the water, foaming wave all around. I was in the cockpit. I was not tied on, nor did I need to be. How could anyone easy fall out of a Flicka cockpit? The wave broke on my head. I was underwater for what seemed an age. Before I knew it, the boat was upright, the cockpit had drained and we were back on course as if nothing had happened. The two top washboards were out and the hatch open. Not a drop of water found it's way below.

I would rather be in a Flicka is nasty conditions that almost any other boat. You might be terrified but you are safe.

To all those who would diss a Flicka I would say sail one first. It might be a 20 foot boat but it's one that behaves like a much bigger one.

Fair winds all

Re: John Vigor is an idiot

The sea worthiness was not a scale rating of 1-10. It was ranking among the 19 other boats in the book-- it came in 6th place out of 20. He was not insulting to the boat.. You're being too sensative.

Re: John Vigor is an idiot

When Good Old Boat magazine published Vigor's review of the Flicka years ago, I wrote a rebuttal to the editor of GOB but they refused to publish it in full and edited the content. The edited version removed the content showing Vigor was wrong. I refused to published their edited version. His response to my letter was trite and personally attacked my character. Regardless he is not an asshole. Publishers, such as Good Boat Magazine are irresponsible for publishing his unsupported claims. HIs review of the Bristol Channel Cutter was just as bad as all his reviews - composed of trite, irresponsible comments and unsupported claims. No, he is not an asshole perhaps one of the puss filled pimples on the asshole of life.

Re: John Vigor is an idiot

Oh, I am the founder of the Flicka website many years ago. At the time, we sailed a Nor'star custom aft-cabin Flicka named African Moon. We eventually sold the boat and purchased a Bristol Channel Cutter. I still miss African Moon.

Re: John Vigor is an idiot

...and I thought I hated his writing!

What really pisses me off about his review is not that it is critical of the boat. That's fine. The boat has flaws, as all boats do. What really rilles me is that so much of his article is simply WRONG. Its not an honest appraisal, more of a snarky, sarcastic diatribe full of outright bullshit.

He might be an asshole, or even an ass boil as you suggest. I don't know, and I don't really care. Plenty of good writers are assholes.

Vigor is simply not a good writer, and piss poor at analysis and critical thinking. Humor is great - as long as its on the mark.

Example: "The motion of a Flicka while reaching in steep seas is so severe it will make the most macho "I never get seasick" guys turn white as a sheet, and fight desperately to keep thier lunch down.

They will lose that fight. Her initial tenderness and shoal draft keel means she rolls through 40 to 60 degrees in such conditions. Take some Dramanine before setting out and enjoy the show"

Now, the above statement is true, and depending on your sense of humor, funny. It also warns potential owners of one of the rather unpleasant quirks of the boat, and to be prepared for it. I learned this the hard way - by getting sick myself!

I "never got seasick" before owning this particular boat either!

There are other "flaws" as well: narrow side decks, low toe rails, small cockpit drains that backup with seawater, and very little room to stow a tender on deck - a real problem for a bluewater liveaboard cruiser. If you have an inboard and enclosed head, you lose nearly 1/2 of your stowage space.

But we are talking about a micro-cruiser that can and does cross oceans safely. Such trade offs are to be expected. What has not been compromised is seaworthiness, weatherlyness or structural integrity. Comfort and convience? To an extent. Looks? Not a bit to my eye.

So lets have an honest, informed evaluation if you claim to be expert enough to write about the boat. Do more than a daysail in her. Learn what she is capable of in a variety of conditions. Write honestly and accurately.

Then you can be the biggest gaping asshole in the world, and I will applaud your writing, though I will probably avoid you at parties....

;-)

Re: John Vigor is an idiot

My my! How tense everyone can get about nothing. It's just a boat, allbeit a very desireable one. Chill dudes.

Re: John Vigor is an idiot

I built and sailed a Flicka to Hawaii Washington state. The rougher the seas got the more confidence I had in her. She is a safe and resonably fast boat . I logged 26 days and 2700 miles with four of them in toal calm. You better know what you are doing regardless of the boat. It seems John Vigor needs some more boat lesson!

Your article very good, I am very interested in your story!*_*

Your article very good, I am very interested in your story!*_*

Re: John Vigor is an idiot

Flicka owners tend to be an overly sensitive bunch....A 6 for seaworthiness among a nest of very seaworthy boats is not bad at all. Think about it for a minute...Contessa 32's have made unbelievable high latitude passages, and have perhaps as fine of a reputation as a boat can have in tough weather. Westsails have also done high latitude passages... I am not talking about short lived blows on the way to the Bahamas, or a windy day in the in SF Bay, etc, but true offshore high lat. passages in the Southern Ocean. For a Flicka to even be mentioned among these boats is something owner's should be proud of.

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